Issue reports

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Re: Issue reports

Postby munki » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:42 pm

to have a graphics program’s previews not be a true rendition of what I am saving is ludicrous. I don’t care what the reasons are, frankly I don’t want to know. I just want to be able to save what I see.


This just isn't right. With respect - there are many, many industry standard, high-end graphics programs that can't accurately preview the final result. The preview window would have to wait as long as it takes for your actual final render to show you the final render. That's quite a long time in most cases, everytime you do the smallest change to your workflow.

What Oscar has done, is give us a preview window, which you don't always get and so people don't complain about it. I'd rather have it how it is than not at all, but showing the proper rendered result is never going to happen until we have machines so fast that full render happens in miliseconds.

In case anyone's wondering, stuff that don't have a preview of the "real" result include, photoshop(in some areas, like how a print will actually look), any 3D program from Maxon, 3DS Max, Maya. Video production suites like After Effects and pretty much anything that's used for industry graphics, tv and movies. If those big players could generate "real" previews they would, but they can't.

I know I did insert the quote above but this post is really to everyone who's been posting on these topics. Why aren't you asking for a full output preview in DAP? If you know that, then you know why it's not possible in PR.

Personally I don't want PR to be boxed into some category, I'd like to to remain an open-ended tool for all kinds of stuff. I agree at the moment it's having problems doing anything fully. I'd like to see issues addressed starting with the very basics.

I really like PR but at present it's got the potential to do almost anything I can think of, but some of the blocks are a bit strange. I think the reason we mostly like "painting" effects is that it does those bits very well, problems aside, it's still doing it better than anything else at the painting effects. For example Photoshop.

I should post more often, but it's come out now in one big flow. Oscar, PR is amazing, it's the single exciting thing for image manipulation after years of new versions of Photoshop features that I don't need.

I think maybe one problem with this thread is that it's been a while and I keep checking the forum but where is an update to the software that addresses an issue? I'd like Oscar to say, OK we're going to fix X, it's do-able ... and here's the updated version. At the moment there's an issues thread and a suggestions thread, I've owned the soft for a couple of months and no issues or suggestions have been developed and released. Even something small would perhaps let us early adopters know that things are moving.

All the best.
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Re: Issue reports

Postby bil abington, pa » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:20 pm

munki wrote:This just isn't right. With respect - there are many, many industry standard, high-end graphics programs that can't accurately preview the final result. The preview window would have to wait as long as it takes for your actual final render to show you the final render. That's quite a long time in most cases, everytime you do the smallest change to your workflow.


I have no problem with this. Give me an option to render before I save then. It's doable hell I had that feature in 3d programs I used over 10 years ago and 10 minute render times were the norm. Give me that option. I'll make that decision. Can't remember the name right now but there was one program you had the choice of Draft, Quick Render and Full Render.
Have Fun Bill
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Re: Issue reports

Postby munki » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:50 am

Fair enough, I guess that's just a confusion of semantics. When you do those draft type renders you're actually creating a file in temp storage. So it is technically "saving" it. Although I understand you mean "save" as in choose where the file goes and easily keep it later.

Draft mode would be great and should do a better job although there may be some problem as I'd expect draft would rely on low-res to speed things up, but then the mysterious shock smooth seems to be resolution dependent. I think that set of blocks is causing the main bunch of preview problems.

Currently in 3D the in app preview is enhanced with OpenGL and it does quite a good job on-the-fly, although it's as unlike proper output as the previews we have here. Draft output is usually a case of do the math less accurately. It suffers a lot when you try to do stuff like lens or motion blur effects, or diffuse reflections.

It is conjecture but I would imagine that when we scale down an image before applying something like shock smooth, we're reducing detail and in effect, doing math less accurately in comparison to the full res image. In 3D, we're using draft as a quick way to approximate a full quality output, but in PR with shock smooth and the like, I think we're actually wanting the draft version so-to-speak. It is the full quality version we don't like when we get it.

Oscar's solution to render somewhat low-res then upscale afterwards is I think attending to this, but it goes against what we're conditioned to think, we want clean hi-res output. My print output seems fine Oscar's way because ink spreads and hides pixelation from upscaling, but my on-screen final render looks pretty awful at 100% zoom.

So, we have this marriage of tools that work well because they do better (more accurate math) and tools which work better doing less accurate math or accurate math on a less accurate image. I think this is what's hard to reconcile when we talk about preview/output. It's maybe also a reason that draft output isn't as simple as it would be in an application where all the applied effects are going in the same direction with regard to the accuracy of the math behind the scenes.

Maybe it'd be draft, but not as we know it, half grainy/half smooth. I could live with that too Bil.

I want to be positive, as I already have stated, I prefer this to not having the tools at all, I bought the software. To be fair, these troubles are the holy grail of many applications that try to vectorize images for example.

Photoshop previews look pretty good, but it doesn't let you do this stuff. Its similar tools like Filter Gallery >> Watercolor are very limited and also resolution dependent. In general in Photoshop, if I want decent hi-res output, I just don't go to those tools. It's looking good by hiding stuff from you that you wouldn't like if you saw it. There's no preview for radial/zoom blur even today after many years of Photoshop.

I don't think I'd advocate hiding stuff from us just to let the soft look cleaner, I still prefer to see that bad preview and have access to all the settings of shock smooth. Otherwise it's just another image editor with a reduced feature set.

I think the other common problem is to do with the preview window being much darker or lighter than the output and/or spurious artifacts. I believe this happens when there is some alpha channel stuff going on in the flow. Maybe even just having the CMYK blocks where the K channel is stored in the alpha channel of RGBA. This to me is a bug, and should be improved, how difficult that is to achieve - I don't know.

As mentioned, I'd like to see movement on improving basic features. Maybe some people would agree that we'd feel better about preview or lack of it if we had more trust in the effects of the blocks in our flows?

All the best.
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Re: Issue reports

Postby JEL » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:28 am

bil abington, pa wrote:Can't remember the name right now but there was one program you had the choice of Draft, Quick Render and Full Render.


Sounds like it's Bryce 3D you're thinking about :)
DAP (AOPs): http://jelstudio.dk/DAP/
PhotoReactor (flows, effects and scripts): http://jelstudio.dk/PhotoReactor/
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Re: Issue reports

Postby bil abington, pa » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:42 pm

Is anybody here running Windows 8? I'm asking the question here because I'm not sure if it is something that has to do with Photo Reactor or some setting I need to adjust. I'm new to Windows 8 only a week or 2. Whenever I export an image whether png or jpg from Photo Reactor it immediately pops up in the explorer preview window, I then have to close this window to click done. No other programs so far including Photo Brush or Photo Draw do this.
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Re: Issue reports

Postby Delboy » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:40 pm

Bill I think you just need to untick (( open in default viewer when finished )) in export settings window on export.
I am running Windows 8 and no such problem ;)

here.jpg
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Re: Issue reports

Postby munki » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:44 pm

I'm running windows 8 x64 and you're quite right, it seems like something's not giving up focus in the way windows usually do. It's a right pain when I'm using certain other apps because if I leave PR rendering in the background while I do something else it's sometimes like the PC locked up until I notice the render has finished. I seem to have to have focused the image preview window and then gone back to PR or whatever else I was using before I can continue.

I have noticed that If PR is in the foreground when it happens, it seems I can double click in it rather than single click and it comes back to life. Or in other cases I can quickly click the Windows Photo Viewer tab in the windows taskbar and then click the other thing I was using in the taskbar and that sorts it out.

If you go to Tools >> General Settings in PR, then tick "Use Exports settings..." box at the bottom. Then when you do Export Image you get the Export Settings box which has a "Open in default viewer" tick box at the bottom you can tell PR not to automatically open the finished render in Windows Photo Viewer. I don't know if that's good for you, you'd not see the rendered file til you go and open it but it stops this problem you posted about.

TBH, I hate things stealing focus in general, I know what I want to do, I don't need them popping up.
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Re: Issue reports

Postby munki » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:45 pm

@Delboy beat me to it :D
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Re: Issue reports

Postby minstrel » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:19 pm

Delboy wrote:Bill I think you just need to untick (( open in default viewer when finished )) in export settings window on export.


...it might be good to repeat myself here [from another thread].

Be especially certain this is unchecked/unticked if you plan to utilize any batch processing. As is stands now there is no control over this currently in the 'batch' dialogue window.

A word to the wise is sufficient 8-)
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Re: Issue reports

Postby bil abington, pa » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:22 pm

minstrel, munki, Delboy :oops:
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