New DAP Version 6

Discussion about Mediachance DAP

Re: New DAP Version 6

Postby westes » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:04 pm

I feel like DAP is a long way away from realizing its potential. What I think most people want is a tool that will allow non-artists to create great works of art, in the style of other painters. What DAP is today is only a tool to autopaint photos. But that only gives you the early prototype of a complete painting. After you autopaint, what you really want to do is to be able to manually apply the brushes that are associated with a particular style, to give additional manual touches to the painting.

What is really frustrating is that all of those brushes are exposed to you as part of the autopainting process. So he already has a concept of brushes and some user interfaces to visualize those. What is lacking is any interface to manually apply those brushes after the autopainting process ends. I want to be able to size the brushes, configure the color palette, and then test different brush styles. I want multiple levels of undo, so that bad brush strokes can be undone quickly without undoing all your work. Even better would be a way to put all of these additional manual brushstrokes into one or more layers, so that you could later work on the painting in Photoshop or other tools that know how to use Photoshop layers.

All of this work that keeps getting done to improve autopainting is sending the product in the wrong direction. There are many autopainting tools, and there is only so much you can do with autopainting. Give us a way to extend on what the autopainting does, manually.

I realize that Corel Painter and Photoshop can work on a painting, but they do so at an extremely low level. You have to be a professional painter plus a software expert in those tools to paint effectively over an autopainting. The tool I imagine would allow you to easily paint in complex brush styles, in the palette of your painting, without having any real technical skill as a painter, and without requiring a hugely complex number of user interface actions.
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Re: New DAP Version 6

Postby davidcito69 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:29 pm

That's a very interesting point of view!
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Re: New DAP Version 6

Postby JEL » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:20 pm

Try Photo-Reactor. It's so much more advanced than Photo-Shop (And much more intelligent, dropping the archaic concept of layers)

And it's compatible with DAP (Since both are made by Oscar)
DAP (AOPs): http://jelstudio.dk/DAP/
PhotoReactor (flows, effects and scripts): http://jelstudio.dk/PhotoReactor/
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Re: New DAP Version 6

Postby westes » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:13 pm

JEL wrote:Try Photo-Reactor. It's so much more advanced than Photo-Shop (And much more intelligent, dropping the archaic concept of layers)

And it's compatible with DAP (Since both are made by Oscar)


How is Reactor ever going to know about brushes in the style of a specific artist, or palettes for those brushes that are compatible with the scheme used to do the autopainting?
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Re: New DAP Version 6

Postby JEL » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:35 pm

I was referring to the work you want to do with layers.
PR is much more flexible because it is node-based.
It means you can route things in ways that isn't doable in a layer-based structure.

And since you can create work-flows in PR that you can use directly inside DAP, you can experiment in ways that isn't possible with PhotoShop.

It may not be all you're after, but I think you can take your paintings a lot farther by including PR instead of PhotoShop :)
Maybe not all the way to what you want, but a lot of people have already done amazing things in PR that is beyond PhotoShop's capabilities (And those PR flows, or just parts of them, can be used directly in DAP)
DAP (AOPs): http://jelstudio.dk/DAP/
PhotoReactor (flows, effects and scripts): http://jelstudio.dk/PhotoReactor/
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Re: New DAP Version 6

Postby Oscar » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:03 am

Just so you know I had been thinking of this already many times. Yes I can store data where which brush goes, rotation and all other data, but the issue is what to do with this.
There are many steps besides the brushes so you can't just undo brush that simply by going back- you will have to recreate the other layers that go after it and before it unless I also store the image at intervals.
One idea could be to use the already painted data and run that with different brush strokes - it will generate of course horrible result because the brush placement is intelligent and the same placement work only for that brush but, it certainly is a way how to do something new.
Another idea may be to ban a certain brush and then run the whole thing quickly again with that brush missing.
The reason I didn't do any of the stuff you mentioned (yet) is because after long thinking I came to the conclusion that the actual real-life implications will be far worse than the idea sounds on paper. So a big feature that will require lot of data shuffling will turn into a dud. It is just the way the algorithm works randomly with feedback loop and with thousands of brushes. But I am certainly up to do experiments on this.
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Re: New DAP Version 6

Postby westes » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:26 am

Oscar wrote:Just so you know I had been thinking of this already many times. Yes I can store data where which brush goes, rotation and all other data, but the issue is what to do with this.
There are many steps besides the brushes so you can't just undo brush that simply by going back- you will have to recreate the other layers that go after it and before it unless I also store the image at intervals.
One idea could be to use the already painted data and run that with different brush strokes - it will generate of course horrible result because the brush placement is intelligent and the same placement work only for that brush but, it certainly is a way how to do something new.
Another idea may be to ban a certain brush and then run the whole thing quickly again with that brush missing.
The reason I didn't do any of the stuff you mentioned (yet) is because after long thinking I came to the conclusion that the actual real-life implications will be far worse than the idea sounds on paper. So a big feature that will require lot of data shuffling will turn into a dud. It is just the way the algorithm works randomly with feedback loop and with thousands of brushes. But I am certainly up to do experiments on this.


So I think the vision is that you create an autopainting, but then you provide some method for manually painting on top of that. At minimum this would let us paint more interesting brush strokes in areas of the painting that either a) get done badly; b) do not get done in enough detail; or c) which we just "feel" intuitively need a different emphasis or style. I would not get caught up in layers. I would let the user's brush strokes be an additional layer that sites on top of the autopainting. That way you should be able to easily undo individual brushstrokes.

If you could provide a tool that lets non-professional painters paint in the style of specific great masters, in a way that enhances autopaintings, that would be something with enormous value and would be something quite new.
Last edited by westes on Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New DAP Version 6

Postby happyamateur » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:55 am

OK, so I just installed the upgrade to DAP6. I'm looking forward to playing with this.

But, would REALLY like to see more new presets - hopefully the new, "premium" ones will be along soon :) Personally, I'd like to see some more contemporary styles, as GRNovel and Carver aren't quite doing it for me.
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Re: New DAP Version 6

Postby rgalka » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:20 pm

Hi Oscar... before DAP I discovered the art brush in photoshop and using that pretty much like DAP does.. that is I created a bottom layer where I used a large brush with lots of jitter and randomness to just to get a background [based I the image of course] and then added layers each of which added smaller brushes and more detail. What this did for me was that I could attach adjustment layers to each progression of the painting. I got the most impact with [hue/sat] and [selective color] adjustment layers. Also I was able to add the canvas texture wherever I chose.

So... if possible.. if you could provide photoshop layers [ I know you can, because you did ] for example the [under paint] layer, the [dry brush] and [detail paint], along with any Reactor images created by the preset, then we could do more creative things in photoshop. Add to that the canvas and outline layers and any others that you think could be useful.

Thanks for providing DAP I have be having a blast.

On a side note... an ongoing advanced tips and techniques blog would be most welcome... along with at least one step by step creation of an advanced template from scratch.
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Re: New DAP Version 6

Postby westes » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:42 pm

rgalka wrote:On a side note... an ongoing advanced tips and techniques blog would be most welcome... along with at least one step by step creation of an advanced template from scratch.


I also feel a need for advanced help. The documentation is basic and the advanced features are confusing. It is not clear which advanced features are worth learning, and how would you really learn them without tutorials?
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